Where my pinky gets a little itchy with the shift key
Jon is about this close to activating the parental controls on our DirecTV so that I can no longer watch anything on Discovery Health Channel or TLC. It started a few months ago when I accidentally stumbled upon a show about a new fad in childbirth called Freebirthing where women have their babies at home without the aid of a nurse or midwife or any trained professional. And at one point there was this three-year-old kid going WHY IS MOMMY SCREAMING LIKE THAT?! And the woman is clawing at this head coming out from between her legs, and she's all GET IT OUT! GET IT OUT! Except, there is no one there who knows how to get it out, and her husband is just standing there shrugging like DUDE, THIS WAS YOUR IDEA!
I found the whole thing totally fascinating because you've got to have a special combination of bravery and stupidity going on to attempt such a thing, but Jon has not ever recovered from watching it. In fact, one night last month they ran the episode again, and there I was in bed eagerly awaiting the part where the woman has to get in her car, drive herself to the hospital and ask someone to pull out her placenta, when Jon walked in and was all NO WAY, NOT AGAIN, TURN IT OFF, TURN IT OFF, TURN IT OFF. Oh, come on! Television doesn't get better than this! The look on that doctor's face when he says, "You want me to what?" And she's all, I don't know what the big deal is, I just had a baby at home in front of my three-year-old and this damn placenta won't come out, can't you just yank it for me? Give it a little tug?
And then, of course, there's that loathsome show "A Baby Story" on TLC that follows real couples through the last few weeks of pregnancy. I cannot stop watching it, even though it makes me violently angry. I just cannot believe the bedside manner of some of the doctors on that show, and I'm not even kidding, twice in the last week I have watched a doctor wave the arm of the newborn infant at its mother AS IT IS BEING PULLED FROM THE WOMB. No, wait. Let me finish. These doctors treated these seconds-old babies like puppets, waved their little arms wildly in the air, and said, "Hi, Mommy!" in a high-pitched voice as if that is exactly what they would sound like and say upon taking their first breaths. WHILE THE LOWER HALVES OF THEIR BODIES WERE STILL INSIDE THEIR MOTHERS.
You have got to be shitting me.
I was telling Jon about these episodes yesterday, my voice getting louder and louder with each gruesome detail, and he decided that this was it. No more cable television while I'm pregnant, just look at how needlessly angry it was making me. I made him promise me that if my doctor looked at all like she was going to treat the baby like a puppet that he should immediately knock her to the floor, because otherwise I would one day show up at her house with a crowbar and then spend the rest of my life appealing an assault conviction. WHO KNEW that you might have to include a line in your birth plan that says, "If at all possible, could you please not play ventriloquist with my newborn baby."
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Heather talks about public tantrums (from kids) on today's Momversation.
- Bedtime, Leta lingering defiantly in the hallway. Jon: "If you want fart stories, you better get in bed RIGHT NOW."
- RIP Louis Mortimer Armstrong: http://bit.ly/1R4tv6
- Hugs and kisses to you, too! RT: @Monkey_Tree: @dooce he probably committed suicide because he was tired of LISTENING TO YOU WHINE.
303. Eden said:
The important difference is the quick availability of assistance, though. If you have a doctor or other trained health professional on hand, they can do something immediately to help should something go wrong. They are also far more likely to detect the beginning of a problem before someone who is a non-professional. Waiting until something is obviously wrong, and then having to wait for the arrival of an ambulance and paramedics, could mean the difference between life or death for mother or baby, or compromised health or permanent disability for the child.
I fail to see the benefit of not having that potentially life-saving help on premises, especially when the consequences could be tragic. No matter what the odds, the risk does not, in any way that I can fathom, seem to be worth taking.
304. Jenny said:
"I fail to see the benefit"
Then I would challenge you to do some investigation into the reasons that families would choose to take personal responsibility for the births of their children. I can promise you my husband and I did it after years of thoughtful investigation and study. For us what it boiled down to is that we would no more invite a professional on our honeymoon to instruct us in the basics of sex than we would invite a midwife into our home to instruct us how to give birth.
Because we believe birth is a sexual event that is conducted best in the privacy of our own home, we chose to birth according to our beliefs, privately, sacredly, alone in our bedroom. Our fifth birth was the highlight of our marriage together as a couple, and Paul was so overwhelmed by the energy of our sons birth that he literally jumped for joy when Ben was born.
Here is a link to the trailer for the orgasmic birth documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5bm9-B6Ec4
What we are suggesting is a complete change in the approach that couples make to birth and how best to welcome children into family life.
We have let go of the fear and embraced the truth of what birth always should have been, the literal climax of our sexual lives together as a family: http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/sensual/orgasmic.html
Happy reading!
Jenny Hatch
305. Momo said:
This is so hilarious. Two things:
1) I am in my first trimester and my husband gently but firmly informed me that I am cut off from the "PREGTASTIC" podcast I started listening to, as it was, in his words. "bitchy and rediculous and making you even crazier." Well...he's right.
2) We interviewed a doula who, after some chit-chat, asked me what my fears/concerns about birth might be. Going in, please know that although she was pleasant enough, was 26 and had never given birth. To her question, I replied(thinking, um...DUH) that my fears were pretty typical, that something will go wrong, and that I won't be able to handle the pain, normal stuff. She then replied that (AND I QUOTE) "many women see childbirth as incredibly sensual and a life-giving experience! If you just look at it that way, and go in with a positive attitude, not all filled with negative fears, you can really change your whole experience!!"
Hey, do you think we hired her? Or took away her coffee cup and showed her the door? Yes, option B. NEXT! Reality, please! Thank you!
306. Anonymous said:
Wow, Jenny Hatch. I'm sure your kid, twenty years from now, will lo-oo-ve the fact that you viewed his birth as the "literal climax of our sexual lives together as a family." Because it is, after all, all about you. And your sexual life.
I'm going to take a shower now.
307. faq said:
Well, I see that today's post has yet again brought out the CRAZIES in the commentary!
But oh damn, that was funny.
Good luck Dooce - I keep expecting to check in to discover you're pushing and typing at the same time or something...
308. Katie said:
Out of all the controversial things you've written, this is the first I've commented on. I only read about 5 of the comments, so I have no idea how the conversation has gone. I'm just annoyed that you called freebirthing a new fad. It might be a new fad to you, but it's not to the women who have been doing it for years.
309. Andrea said:
So you totally touched a nerve in this post... for me it was my funny nerve cause I was laughing while reading.
The birthing topic always seems to bring out the best and worst in women. We are quite unfair to each other and it seems that some people tend know the best answer for everyone. This goes both ways.
I don't think that this post by Dooce was meant to attack mothers who are freebirthers. There is more than one way to give birth. I have been with hundreds of babies when they are born in the hospital and there are some women who give birth and make it look so easy peasy. Those women could totally give birth by themselves! They would have a fantastic delivery. Smooth and easy. However, there are lots of woman who need some level of help and assistance. Even with that there are so many levels of help.
I think it is pretty cool that we can pick how we want to birth. Just inform yourself and pick what fits for you.
310. Kristin said:
Everyone who plans on an unassisted birth is not a freak--I had an unassisted birth a year ago in my NYC apartment. There was no drama, the birth was quick and quiet and my other 2 kids never woke up. Some of us just don't labor comfortably in a hospital setting. Birth outcomes for homebirths are actually better than hospital births in the U.S. But of course, just like there are disaster stories for hospital births, they also exist for homebirths. I feel safer giving birth at home--sometimes interventions routinely done in hospitals make you feel worse and make you more likely to have birth complications. That said, there are many ways to birth, and you feeling comfortable and safe and confident in those who will be present at your birth is all that really matters--I wish you the best for an empowered birth and a healthy baby.
311. Eden said:
My older sister had a brain hemorrhage, and without immediate medical assistance, she would have died or had to spend her life disabled by severe brain damage.
Because she was rushed into surgery, she is now a perfectly healthy adult, and incurred no damage whatever. It was a terrifying situation for my parents, and the outcome was better than they could have even hoped for.
I was born with airway complications, and had to have immediate assistance from the attending doctors, and needed to be kept in an incubator to assist my breathing. Otherwise, again, I could have suffered brain damage. Instead, I too am a perfectly healthy and happy adult.
If my mother had chosen to give birth without the assistance of any kind of medical professional, my sister would probably be dead, and I would not be enjoying the life I'm living today.
If complications like these never happened, then yes, Jenny Hatch, that type of childbirth does sound beautiful and ideal. Personally, I just count myself very lucky to be alive and to have my sister to share my life with me. And I know my parents feel the same way.
312. Eden said:
(*my sister had a brain hemorrhage at birth, that is to say.)
313. Judging said:
I believe in being open minded and accepting - but not so open minded that my brain falls out.
I am not a fan of the hospital-birthing-business by any stretch of the imagination and completely support home births with midwives or doulas or someone non-emotionally involved present.
God bless those who were able to have unassisted home births, not wake their children in the next room and orgasm at the same time. However, I feel quite safe in judging as irresponsible their choice to not have an objective third party - preferably with some medical training - present at the time for those "just in case scenarios". Putting your own life at risk is one thing, but its really not just about you at that point in time.
This may be a stretch to believe, but there are those of us pro-choice liberal feminists who still have limits to our tolerance. We have come a long way from mothers having to give birth in the fields and go back to working right away. I just pray that all those who choose an unassisted birth have safe, completely uneventful, and easy experience.
314. Mary said:
What Jenny Hatch fails to mention, of course, is the babies who die during "freebirth." Or as they like to call it in most of the world, "dire lack of women's health care."
One only need check out some of the websites and discussion boards to see how competetive this gets. Homebirth gets topped by freebirth which gets topped by orgasmic birth. Then there is Lotus birth and did you eat the placenta and, oh by the way, I had absolutely no prenatal care. And on and on and on in the earth mother olympics. Conducted on the internet, natch.
I'm pro-homebirth, pro-breastfeeding until whenever and so on. But every community has those members who want to be known as "the most" and in the natural birth community it's no different.
I competely understand the anger with the mainstream medical community, but I am under no obligation to pretend I think it's smart to try and empower oneself via solo childbirth.
315. Jenny Hatch said:
"This may be a stretch to believe, but there are those of us pro-choice liberal feminists who still have limits to our tolerance."
My question for you is, why do you care? We are the ones who have to live with the long term consequences of our choices, just like other women have to live with the outcomes from daily life choices.
Heather has chosen to be a shill for Big Pharma by loudly proclaiming her addiction to Prozac and her use of this dangerous drug during pregnancy....do I care? Sure, I feel bad for her unborn daughter, and any potential heart problems she may have, but does that mean I am going to go on a campaign to convince or tell her I won't tolerate her lifestyle? No.
We all make choices every day that positively or negatively impact the health of our children. I am comfortable with the choices I have made for and in behalf of my little ones. I am so convinced that my lifestyle is beneficial to family life that I have dedicated a huge portion of my time to sharing the good news with others on the web.
Perhaps one of the most trafficked portions of my blog has been the "Do it yourself homebirth debate" catagory. Without debate, and all of us living under the assumption that the medical or midwifery route is best, we limit the possibilities for supreme ecstatic joy when welcoming our children into our lives.
I think that is really sad.
Here is the link to that catagory:
http://www.naturalfamilyblog.com/archives/cat_diy_homebirth_debate.html
Jenny
316. Zina said:
I could not be more with you on this one; in fact at the beginning of the post I was already jumping up and down here waving my arm (entirely un-puppet-like, because I'm a grown person who's not halfway stuck inside my mother,) saying "Oh, pick me!" because although I haven't had cable for about 7 years, I still have to regularly gripe (as in, at least once per pregnancy, and I have five kids) about a particular episode of A Baby Story. This one was about a first-time mom who was obviously Mormon (easy for me to pick out because I'm Mormon too;) the clues were the extended-family photo on her wall of a vast number of smiling and matchingly-clad persons, and the moment when she earnestly intoned to the camera, "I just hope I'll be able to teach my son everything I need to teach him in life." So anyway, she went to the hospital to give birth and after about 4 hours of labor, her doctor diagnosed "failure to progress" and performed a c-section. And the poor dear didn't even know she'd had a sub-par experience and a possibly unnecessary c-section. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a good medical intervention when it's called for (my most recent labor was an early induction with an epidural, both of which things were possibly lifesaving to me and my baby,) but I was really, really bothered that some lazy doctor arbitrarily assigned such a short maximum-allowable time frame on a first-time labor, and nobody involved had the knowledge or experience or personality to even challenge him about it.
(Looks around. Realizes is one voice shouting amidst the deafening roar of 311-or-so commenters, and has been fully swept up in own rant. Slinks away, but first makes attempt at slightly more interactive-type comment):
I think Jon is right and you'd do better to turn off the TV for the next few weeks. Also, I wish you a wonderful labor/delivery. Also, I'd say I hate you for sharing that absolutely horrible Freebirthing scenario, but I understand how things like that must be talked about as part of PTSD recovery.
317. Charlene said:
Heather...you crack me up. I am dying w/ laughter, tears coming out of my eyes at this post. I just gave birth a month ago (in a hospital) and am glad that my doctor didn't wave my baby's arm at me. I'm on a mission to find that at home birth show to watch.
318. Julie said:
I was in the hospital post-surgery (pre-baby) and the TV was STUCK ON, ON THAT CHANNEL for two days before the guy in charge of the TVs made it in to turn it off. Nonstop Baby Story-Wedding Story-for 48 hours on heavy painkillers.
319. Savanah said:
...my loins keep clenching...
320. web designer said:
Wow. Great visuals Dooce. Now I never want to have kids and I don't think I like doctors anymore.
Thanks.
321. Zin said:
I jumped into my rant without even glancing at the other comments, and now that I've glanced, duh, OF COURSE it's a big pro-or-con Freebirthing debate by now. And of course I can't resist jumping in:
I wish I had bookmarked a site I stumbled across a while ago that was a blog kept by a healthcare professional (ob/gyn, I think) that was dedicated to opposing homebirths, and who made, in my opinion, a very compelling case. She'd been following a particular homebirthing forum and counting the births and deaths reported on that forum, and the percentage of homebirth neonatal fatalities was MUCH larger amongst the homebirthers. She told a story in which a pregnant woman had written, on the homebirthing forum, "I'm overdue [I think she was 9 days overdue at that point] and my doctor's really pressuring me to be induced." The women on the forum all told her not to let her doctor bully her and that the baby would come when it was naturally ready to do so. And a few days later she came back and reported that her baby had died.
---
Sorry, I know, that was worse than watching cable, and now Jon will have to ban me, too.
I did just make an effort to track down the site I was remembering, and I think other commenters might have already referenced it:
http://homebirthdebate.blogspot.com/
Ah, wait -- she's now moved to a different blog:
http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/
(I'm pretty sure this is the one I had read part of.)
322. Briton said:
I am sickened to learn that there is a new fad where women give birth without any skilled attendant present at all. I don't care if women choose to give birth at home - I totally get that and I understand it and I support it. BUT, I only support it if there is someone there who knows what the F* they're doing. There ARE risks during labor and delivery. Plain and simple, the end. And you don't always know what the risks are until it happens. And yes there are risks to having your baby in a hospital, but the risks are not fatal like they are with not using a skilled attendant. There are risks to the mother and there are risks to the baby. Hundreds of thousands of women and infants die around the world because they didn't have a skilled birth attendant with them who knew to use a sterilized knife to cut the cord, or who didn't know the signs of hemorrhaging or respiratory distress. I work in developing countries advocating for the use of skilled birth attendants which is proven to save lives. It makes me sick that educated women who have access to excellent medical care and skilled midwives would choose to put themselves and their child at risk like this.
323. Mary said:
Jenny, Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound with your alligator tears for Dooce's unborn child when you champion your own children being born into conditions that mimic the highest infant mortality rates in the world?
As I said, I'm a big supporter of homebirth, midwifery and so on. Your language keeps giving you away, "we have to live with the consequences..." No, it's not "we" because the baby that could have been saved by the most basic of care does not live. And if it's you who dies, it's the children you leave behind who have to live with it.
I don't admire people who take risks with their kids to prove how radical/enlightened/open minded they are. Not in this case, not in anycase.
324. Judging said:
I care because when people take extreme personal risks they put the burden of the potential outcomes of those choices on society at large. The choice is yours, but to demand that others support your choice including the possible negative outcomes is very selfish. To not mitigate the potential risks is like a motorcyclist driving without a helmet- a fine choice as long as the road is clear and nothing unexpected happens, but if things don't go right the rider isn't the one picking up the peices. I'm not saying one shouldn't be free to choose there own way, only that to not take precautionary measures, even small ones like having a doula or midwife present, is selfish and foolhardy. In most cultures, even before the medical establishment became an entity unto itself, there was a woman in the community who assisted with births. It's about being more then just a family- it's about being part of a society.
325. Stephanie said:
I can't get enough of those shows either! My husband feels the same as Jon.
That freebirthing show is just crazy! I really can't understand why a woman would put herself in that much danger, let alone her baby!!??!! CRAZY!
326. The Bold Soul said:
"because otherwise I would one day show up at her house with a crowbar and then spend the rest of my life appealing an assault conviction."
No court would convict you. In fact, I'd rather hope they'd convict the doctors and nurses because that has GOT to be some form of medical malpractice with that sort of cutesy behavior.
327. Amy said:
We got rid of our TV 4 years ago. Well, I did. It wasn't mine to begin with and I wasn't about to spend money on one, so there ya go. Actually, an ex's and I made him take it beg because I needed all things his to go at that time. I DO NOT regret it. However, I do binge at times when dogsitting for friends. Dog and I curl up after they get their exercise and I watch super crappy TV for 4 hours straight. I'm not proud of it.
But to get to the point. I have learned more about birth from you than my family and friends who have gone through it multiple times. I would like to both applaud you and condemn them at the same time. Why are we always left in the dark for all these REALLY important things?! I shouldn't have to google that shit.
In closing, THANK you. In so many ways.
Amy
328. ria said:
i've jus been looking at freebirthing and the original uk show outlaw births! (ha ha love that title)
clio howie's water birth was amazing.....can absolutely see why women would choose this option. they have the video on you tube.
good luck :)
329. callie said:
It made me insane listening to my phone messages the week before my due date. "Have you had the baby yet?" "When is she coming out?" "Is she here yet?" "Are we there yet?" I only had a few people calling me. You have the whole internet tapping their toes, looking at their watches.
The mucus plug is not a turkey timer people. Just because it popped out it does not mean she's done...
330. Coelecanth said:
I was glad to hear from Briton #322 regarding this. Although I'm sure that the freebirthers are well educated enough to use a sterile instrument to cut the cord, all I could think reading Ms. Hatch's comments was: "I wonder what a pregnant woman in the slums of Haiti would say about this debate?" Of course we'll never know because the truly disadvantaged can't access the internet. I'll hazard a guess though. Perhaps something along the lines of: "Send me the ventriloquist Doctor, he can do whatever puppetry he likes so long as I and my child come out of this alive and healthy."
Priorities, my how they change given one's situation. Worrying about the birthing "experience" is a luxury of the developed world. A luxury made possible by a medical system that's there to save you and the child should something go wrong. Oh, and so you can see where I'm coming from, we took full advantage of that luxury and in the end had to discard it.
My wife and I planned a low intervention hospital birth. Oxymoron? No, not really, we found a group of female GPs who were perfectly on board with that idea. Indeed, their stated reason for existing to fill that gap between OBGYN directed hospital birthing and home birthing. These folks were all about letting us direct how the process would go while allowing us to do so in a setting where every possible safeguard was right to hand. Have our cake and eat it too: a pleasant birthing "experience" made less anxious by knowing how close help would be in the event of an emergency.
My wife's waters broke early. 36 hours later with no dilation, minimal contractions and no amniotic fluid left it was realized our daughter was breech. There was no chance of turning her, labour wasn't progressing at all and the baby's heart rate began to drop steadily. Emergency C-section time. My wife cried through the whole "experience" and I only held it together because I had to. Yup, we had the freebirther's nightmare: full-on medical intervention.
Did the medical establishment let us down? Oh yes. Someone should have seen that the baby hadn't turned much sooner. Would a midwife/doula have seen it in time? Maybe, maybe not. Would we have all on our own. I can't imagine it. Three different doctors and at least one nurse palpitated and pronounced everything right. It took an ultra-sound to see what was going on. My wife and I also hold some of the blame for this misdiagnosis. If we hadn't been so insistent on low intervention maybe they'd have put the ultra-sound on her sooner. Sometimes mistakes are made and that my friends is the human condition.
We worried a great deal about the "experience" beforehand. We did our homework and came up with a plan that seemed to give us what we wanted. And then the plan got thrown out the window. My wife ended up crucified (her word) on an operating table. I spent the whole time fighting my fear and disappointment, trying to comfort my wife. And yet, I say that that day was one of the most wonderful of my life.
I took our little girl from the nurse (a 9 on the Apgar, yay baby!) and lay her on my wife's breast. Suddenly her tears turned from ones of helplessness and fear to ones of joy. Instantly, completely. I have never seen anything like it. And at that moment I realized that all of my disappointment at how things went meant nothing. All our plans meant nothing. There before me was the whole point of the exercise, a mother, a daughter, the two most important people in the world to me, alive and together.
Experience? What is that? Isn't it in part how you choose to view the events of your life? In the end joy doesn't come from your plans and expectations and how closely those are met. It comes from what you choose to remember and value.
I choose to remember and value my wife's amazing transformation of emotion, and forget the cause of her distress. I choose to remember and value the first sight of those little tiny hands and startlingly black hair. I choose to remember and value all the good that came from that day and none of the bad. I choose to cherish the day my daughter came into the world and to hell with any detail that wasn't up to my expectations. End of rant.
Best of luck with everything Dooce. Thank you again for providing a place where we all can have our say about this stuff.
331. Farnés said:
Oh yes, you just made my day.. That is by far the loudest I've laughed in while.
332. CurlyQ said:
Indeed, so many births happen in such a way that there is never really a need for any intervention or assistance at all. These are such wonderful births, but certainly, they are not the only kind. Sure women have and still deliver babies in fields and barns, etc., but as many have already said, look at the present and historical data on morbidity and mortality rates of these women and their babies. Hello people!!
Google any of the following and then tell me exactly why it's not completely insane to deliver without an experienced professional:
Shoulder Dystocia
Amniotic Embolism
Prolapsed cord
Post-Partum Hemorrhage
Placental Abrubtion
Pneumothorax of the newborn
....I could go on, but I think this will do for now.
I have seen all of the above and let me tell you, even if your house is right next door to a hospital equipped to deal with any of the above, you are still TOO FAR AWAY!
There is much claim about how "EDUCATED!" these freebirthers are. They are not educated enough. They have not had the education of seeing and dealing with the listed events unfold, where, without immediate medical intervention, beautiful lives would be no longer. If any of the above situations were to occur, the only thing these people could do would be dial 911 and hope help gets there in time...It's very likely that there would not be enough time.
If there were no possibility for such grave risks, I could see the beauty of delivering at home with just you and your partner. However, the thought that making such a choice could mean the otherwise preventable death or lasting damage to me or my baby makes this choice damn ugly. There is no beauty in those risks and only stupidity in making that choice.
By the way, from what I have read so far, freebirthing can land you and any accompanying family/friends in jail should any of the dreadful negatives occur!
To the person who asked why we care what choices you make...
Are you serious? It's because we are human. Some parents choose to believe that it's ok to abuse their children. Are you telling me you don't care about that choice? A lot of people choose to do a lot of things that don't effect me directly or those I love, but when they pose a threat to the innocent lives around them, I CARE!
333. Laura-Lu said:
I have to comment on a couple of things. Home birthing is just as safe as giving birth in a hospital. Someone mentioned "i am old fashioned i gave birth in the hospital" and thats funny because nothing is as old fashioned as having your kids at home! With the proper precautions, training, research and having an experianced midwife, or even making sure you yourself know all the steps, giving birth at home is a wonderful, beautiful event that most women dont even give a chance because they are led to believe its dangerous. ITS NOT. the statistics back that up 100%.
Yes its unconventional Nowadays, but even 50-60 years ago it was the norm!!
334. buy steroids said:
I've seen that episode also and remember that doctor's face. Reading this just had me spitting iced tea at the monitor.
Too funny. sorry
336. Lee said:
Yeah, I can relate to getting addicted to those goddamn birthing shows....especially during the time of month Im getting ready to have my period, at 47 and childless by choice...When I've watched 3 episodes, I pour myself a martini and think.......Boy, am I glad I forgot to have kids...best wishes to you folks....and not maria...treats to the dogs
337. Chriss said:
Can someone tell me when this Freebirthing is on????? I need to see this to believe it.
338. Jenny Hatch said:
"To the person who asked why we care what choices you make...
Are you serious? It's because we are human. Some parents choose to believe that it's ok to abuse their children. Are you telling me you don't care about that choice? A lot of people choose to do a lot of things that don't effect me directly or those I love, but when they pose a threat to the innocent lives around them, I CARE!"
Me too. I care deeply about the choices that mothers make for and in behalf of their children and it is why I write and speak to everyone in my sphere of influence about the dangers of allopathic medicine.
Crocodile tears? Nope, just pure education and inquiry. I weep for those children being poisoned in their mothers wombs by anti depressants and other toxic medicines. But as stated above, I am not going to be intolerant of anyones decision regarding health care choices made around birth and parenting. That being said, I will fearlessly share the facts with anyone interested in learning more about making healthy babies.
Jenny
PS: For those interested, a few helpful links:
Peter Breggin - Pregnant women should NOT take antidepressants: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/pregnant-mothers-should-n...
From the Wall Street Journal this week: http://www.wellnessresources.com/freedom/articles/antidepressants_strong...
"Yet another psychiatrist has found his way into Sen. Charles Grassley's interrogation chamber. And this time, the doctor's employer moved quickly with a reprimand: Emory University disciplined Dr. Zachary Stowe, a prominent psychiatrist who was being paid by GlaxoSmithKline at the same time he was conducting federal research about the use of antidepressants in pregnant women. Stowe hadn't disclosed his payments from Glaxo, which amounted to at least $250,000 in 2007 and 2008.
Grassley wrote Emory earlier this month, saying that records he'd obtained from Glaxo--which makes the antidepressant Paxil--detailed those payments, which included fees for at least 95 promotional talks on the drugmaker's behalf, the Wall Street Journal reports.
Meanwhile, Stowe was listed as primary investigator on at least three grants from NIH that involve antidepressant use in pregnant women. NIH requires reporting of conflicts of interest among researchers working under its grants.
In a statement, Emory said Dr. Stowe had come forward to acknowledge his undisclosed conflicts of interest. Perhaps the doctor learned something from the experience of Dr. Charles Nemeroff, another Emory psychiatrist who stepped down as chairman of the department last year after failing to report more than $800,000 received from Glaxo from 2000 to 2006. Nemeroff's conduct is now under investigation by the HHS inspector general; he remains on Emory's faculty and maintains that he had acted in good faith to follow the disclosure rules as he understood them."
Antidepressants Strongly Linked to Heart Disease: http://www.wellnessresources.com/freedom/articles/antidepressants_strong...
Selective Publication of Antidepressant Trials and Its Influence on Apparent Efficacy: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/358/3/252
"Selective reporting of clinical trial results may have adverse consequences for researchers, study participants, health care professionals, and patients."
New York Times: Researchers Fail to Reveal Full Drug Pay http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/us/08conflict.html?_r=1&ex=1213502400&...
"A world-renowned Harvard child psychiatrist whose work has helped fuel an explosion in the use of powerful antipsychotic medicines in children earned at least $1.6 million in consulting fees from drug makers from 2000 to 2007 but for years did not report much of this income to university officials, according to information given Congressional investigators."
339. Eden said:
I find it fascinating that Jenny Hatch is vehemently objecting to comments expressing opinions that disagree with hers, yet she is consistently completely ignoring the posts where people are citing very real examples of their own experiences of childbirth in which the babies or mother would have absolutely died without immediate medical intervention. Interesting.
340. NancyR said:
My doctor did that! First-born child, c-section (scheduled, not emergency), "Look Robert! It's a foot!" doctor waves foot at Rob
341. Jenny Hatch said:
I have known plenty of free birthers who have had difficult experiences. I'm one of them. I gave birth to my fourth child in my bedroom and had to transfer to the hospital because we could not get our son to breath, and I was bleeding out with a deadly crit. Laura Shanley, also an outspoken freebirther had a son die shortly after his home birth and I know several couples who have lost children during a home birth. No one in the home birth community ignores or shys away from these harsh realities. We have written extensively about them in our various books, blogs, and on our chat rooms and discussion boards.
I'm not objecting to anything, I'm just sharing some information that expands the options for birthing couples. And I'm attempting to defend my lifestyle choices a little bit. Believe me, I honestly don't care how other people live, but I will claim my rights of self determination over my own body and stand up for our community when it is being attacked by popular bloggers.
I also believe that many who are making life choices that harm and/or permanently damage children in utero and are gleefully yelling it out to the blogosphere need to be better informed about toxic drugs. And so in the spirit of honest inquiry, I shared some information about anti depressants.
But don't assume that all of the choices medically minded mothers make are always right all the time. Often those choices have horrifying consequences for the baby and the mother. We are just a group of people who have weighed it all out and made what we felt were the best choices for our kids.
Live and let live... right?
Jenny
342. Aimee Greeblemonkey said:
I was watching all those damn shows with Declan, including Emergency Delivery, or whatever it is called. My OB kept telling me to stop watching them, especially Emergency Delivery, but I wouldn't. Then Declan came 2 months early, in spectacular fashion. My doc was YELLING at me as she ran next to me in the gurney, "I TOLD YOU NOT TO WATCH THAT DAMN SHOW!!!"
Declan's Emergency Birth Story
Nearly seven years lately, she still mentions it at ever yearly checkup.
My point being, STOP WATCHING THOSE SHOWS.
====
P.S. This is gonna sound crazy freaky but I dreamed about you guys last night, which is why I came to the site today, to see if labor was upon you. I got the spooky dreams from my grandmother. So, um, watch out.
343. Kristi said:
Jenny,
If your child hadn't lived after that ordeal, I doubt you'd feel the same. Or perhaps if your child ended up with permanent brain damage for life because of your careless actions, you'd maybe feel a bit guilty over worrying about your "orgasmic" and "sexual" experience rather than worrying about the health of your own child. All your posts seem ridiculously self-centered. It's not about you bitch, it's about the kids that are being born! It's not about your birthing orgasm, it's about your son breathing, and being able to grow up and have make choices for himself someday. I think you're delusional, like posting your little links and signing your name at the end of your responses makes you so much better than everyone here. Oh, and saying earlier how you're not on a crusade about anti-depressants during pregnancy and saying you don't care, and then mentioning it in detail with a GREAT deal of bias makes you a fantastic hypocrite. How dare you get on here with your pathetic attitude and be filled with negativity and scare-tactics and try to make a PREGNANT woman feel scared or ashamed about her personal choice? Rather Dooce be alive and functioning with an alive and functioning baby than to off herself during or shortly after. I don't know much about the effects of drugs on pregnant women, but just because you read a couple biased articles doesn't make you any more informed of anything. You've never experienced the pain of real depression, lucky you. Write your little quotes and post your little links, and talk down to everyone here that's supportive of Dooce and her new baby, but don't think you have any impact, you pathetic witch.
Sincerely,
Kristi
p.s. Hi Dooce! You're awesome! :D
344. Judging said:
Jenny, obviously you care and are judging others on their choices because you care. So tell me how does it feel to be depressed to the point you want to end your life? The hormones that give you such a thrill in birthing can tear others apart- if someone is diabetic would you tell them they are wrong for injecting insulin while pregnant? Careful, your true colors are showing here and it isn't the pretty rainbow you think it is...
It's time to move on now.
345. BOSSY said:
Yes, but have you watched Bossy's addiction: Bringing Home Baby?
It makes Bossy feel oh-so-much-better about her own life.
346. Betsy said:
"Heather has chosen to be a shill for Big Pharma by loudly proclaiming her addiction to Prozac and her use of this dangerous drug during pregnancy....do I care? Sure, I feel bad for her unborn daughter, and any potential heart problems she may have, but does that mean I am going to go on a campaign to convince or tell her I won't tolerate her lifestyle? No."
Yeaaaaahhh, but see. You kinda just did.
I think it's great when certain posts hit a nerve and some rich dialogue comes out of it, and we all read and nod and cock our heads to one side and ponder a bit, and at the end of the day we're all thinking a little more like the other person. I know Jenny you're probably thinking that your orgasm is just a (ridiculous) byproduct of doing what's most healthy for your baby. And so many others think yeah, it would be great to NOT have the cancer ward upstairs, or to get filleted like a fish, as one commenter so eloquently put it. But not everyone is gonna have the same birth story. We're all reading and clamboring to give opinions because pregnancy and delivery is so FREAKING CENTRAL to our lives. It's good to hear there are some sojourners and be all "She did it HOW?" and also to have someone say "The same thing happened to me."
There has to be some admission of grace here, in order for Heather to give us all the bandwith she does.
347. coelecanth said:
Oh god, I know I shouldn't it'll make no difference. You can't reason with fanatics. Sigh, I should just go to bed...
Let's look at one of the claims made above, one citing the Huffington Post article. I chose this one because it had real numbers listed, not just percentages.
From that article:
"Craniosynostosis--the premature closing of one or more sutures or fibrous joints knitting the bones of the infant's skull--showed 2.5 times more prevalence in infants exposed in utero to SSRIs..."
"Craniosynostosis occurs in about four per 10,000 births according to the National Institutes of Health."
So, the incidence of craniosynostosis without SSRIs is 0.04%
With SSRIs is 2.5 x 0.04% = 0.1%, or 1 in 1000 births.
Now from Wikipedia:
"Among full-term, head down babies, cord prolapse is quite rare, occurring in 0.4 percent." This is of course, 4 in 1000.
Cord prolapse is where the umbilical cord is compressed during birth which can cause brain damage to fetus through lack of oxygen. It's also something that requires medical intervention.
Also from Wikipedia:
"Umbilical cord prolapse is an obstetric emergency during pregnancy or labor that imminently endangers the life of the fetus."
"If attempts to deliver the baby prompty fail, the fetus' air and blood supply are occluded and brain damage or death will occur."
"The mortality rate for the fetus is given as 11-17%[6]. This applies to hospital births or very quick transfers in a first world environment."
Keep that last one in mind, in a situation where all available medical intervention is present there's still a mortality rate of 11-17%. I imagine in a unsupported situation the rate in closer to 100%. I couldn't find any stats on that. Oh, and these rates go up in breech births, but let's leave that alone, the math get too much for me.
So let's look at the numbers again.
Risk of craniosynostosis from antidepressants: 1 in 1000
Risk of cord prolapse in normal, head-down birth: 4 in 1000
So our dear Jenny above is willing to take a four times greater risk of having a baby die or suffer brain damage through freebirthing than Dooce is taking of her baby having craniosynostosis from antidepressant use. Hmmm, who should be warning whom about risks?
For the record: both of these risks are so small that neither of them should give them a moment's thought. This is just to show the lack of reason in the claims made above. Those claims are simply fear-mongering to support a cherished belief.
348. Kelly said:
I'm not getting involved in this one.
Just wanted to let Dooce know that "Maria" has kind of grown on me. Maria Armstrong...nice:)
Good luck!Just remember the second one is usually a bit easier! At the very least you know what to expect!
349. Amelia said:
Heather, love ya! Really.
Vote for Dooce over at http://www.socialluxelounge.com/blogluxe/ under "Funniest Blog".
350. Megan said:
my friend used to tell a good story about a cousin of hers that came here from Egypt. She was pregnant and wanted to give birth in the United States to give her child dual citizenship. Unfortunately she was not at all fluent in English, and communication was mostly between her husband and the doctor, while she focused on pushing a human out of her loins.
When it was all over, she lay back - exhausted - contemplating what to name her new baby girl when she heard the doctor - who had treated her very well - utter what she thought was the most beautiful English word she'd heard. She immediately decided that THAT would be the name of her little one.
Placenta.
351. danielle said:
Reading the comments and such about placentas reminded me of a story that a friend of mine told me, who heard it from a friend of hers, so it's totally true.
This friend of a friend was working in the framing department at some Michael's Craft Store somewhere, when this lady and her husband came in with this dark flat thing (that I imagine resembled a big flat piece of beef jerky) to get framed. Turns out the couple saved the afterbirth, dried it out (I imagine them using a RonCo Jerky Maker), and decided to get it framed, like they did with the afterbirth of their older two children.
What the hell? Who frames a dried out placenta and hangs it on the wall like art? Some families hang all their diplomas in the dining room and other families hang all the mother's afterbirths.
Also, I wonder what was weirder/grosser: The people coming in with the afterbirth and having to place the sample frame corners and matting next to the afterbirth, or having to deal with someone else's dried out afterbirth that they leave at Michael's for framing?
352. Anonymous said:
You should check out the movie The Business Of Being Born (really, it's more of a documentary) which was made by Ricki Lake if you liked watching Freebirthing. It covers the topic much better and gives reasons why women chose to birth at home vs. the hospital. It's a good move even if you don't agree with it. Made me cry - lol.
353. Megan said:
Creepy. I can't watch that crap anymore... The only time I wanted A Baby Story was while I was pregnant-- 5 years ago. Now, it makes me get this nauseous tingly feeling in my stomach.. Can't handle it. Ugh. I'm retching just thinking about it.
354. Annie Stevens said:
I love the comments by Jenny Hatch! She reminds me of those fat, uneducated, biased hicks in Missouri who think that their lack of educational is excused by either religion or just a personal sense of superiority! Seems like you don't have comments on your blog, because I would love nothing better than to tell you personally what an idiot you are.
"Heather has chosen to be a shill for Big Pharma by loudly proclaiming her addiction to Prozac and her use of this dangerous drug during pregnancy....do I care? Sure, I feel bad for her unborn daughter, and any potential heart problems she may have, but does that mean I am going to go on a campaign to convince or tell her I won't tolerate her lifestyle? No."
Like you didn't make your opinions clear there! If the mother is not happy, the baby won't be. Medication helps a lot of people - I was unlucky in that that medication has not helped me sufficiently through my post-partum depression, but it's a hit-or-miss struggle that I've fought for awhile.
Just because not every woman has a giant vagina hidden by a muumuu of a denim dress, doesn't mean that they are covertly working for the man to keep all you idiots in your hill huts. You know, I do believe that stupidity is the Prozac of most of the country - the smarter one is, the more miserable, because you realize that while you don't know that much, you know enough to realize how the world really works. You also realize that the ugly, unenlightened idiots such as yourself are multiplying like crazy.
355. Kami said:
to 343. Kristi.... lady, calm down- you're being just as negative, if not more. We're having a discussion about children, and now people are starting to act like children?
No way... my captcha is "induces 500"- pfff
356. Teresa said:
I just love your blog, and am amazed by the volume and content of the comments that it produces. The beauty of it all, and I believe others have also said this, is that you have the CHOICE to do what is best for you, your family and most importantly, for your baby. Don't judge. Dooce, keep sharing your witty observations!
357. Claire said:
Yup,
"Hi, Mommy" is part of my memories of our only child's birth. After 24 hours of un-fun, the doctor on call decided to lighten the "mood" by waving my son's blue, goop covered arm at me and squeak " Hi, Mommy!!!" while the lower part of his body was traveling through my birth canal...I was embarrassed for him and it was a good thing for the epidural or I prolly would have jumped off the table and smacked some sense into the man. THAT, was NOT part of my birth plan.
Best of luck, Heather.
358. Kami said:
What strikes me when "conversations" get this way is that nobody is actually doing anything but demonstrating how little they can manage to respect other people. Yeah, we all love taking sides, having opinions and acting bratty about it, just like kids- you're stupid! You're a bitch! I weep for your poisoned unborn child! Bickering makes me cross-eyed, and now I'd like to stoop to that level and mention that every time I read things like "LOL you rock! rock ON! *snort* omg i can't believe people say things like this to you there so mean lol i just puked a little in my mouth!" I feel like my eyes are going to roll back into my head. Yes, I am not irritated or upset at all about someone else's birthing choices, because it's none of my business. Yeah, I think freebirthing is scary, but again- none of my business. I just really wish people would stop typing those other things.
359. Horriblelicenseplates said:
We cannot wait to see Not-Maria! Good luck with everything!
360. Elaine said:
Kami:
Do you believe your comments are raising the bar in some way? They are not.
361. Mandie said:
My husband and I are currently trying for our first child, but I am rethinking this decision after a few of these comments actually made me so light-headed I had to put my head down on my desk for a few minutes and a concerned coworker asked me if I was all right. HOLY GOD, PEOPLE. Sure, women have been giving birth for millions of years, and just a couple of centuries ago they did it all the time without a medical professional present, and you know what? A WHOLE LOT OF THEM DIED. AND THEIR BABIES DIED TOO. Home birth with a midwife present is one thing - home birth with NOBODY present is lunacy.
362. Firefly said:
My favorite birth was my emergency c-section--being totally unaware suits me just fine...
363. Zina said:
AAAAACK!
I came back and started reading the comments from the beginning and got to #59 about the filleting and I may never recover. AAAAACK! That might be as far as I get through the comments (and yet I fear I might continue on, in spite of my shaking and shivering and squirming.)
Based on stuff I read on a website I cited earlier, and very much reinforced by some of the (excellent) comments here, I've changed my attitude about home births. My attitude used to be the same as yours -- let people do what they want as long as they have someone attending and an emergency plan. Now my attitude is that because of the possibility of the relatively rare but very serious complications another commenter listed (I think the commenter was Coelecanthe, but I don't want to click away from my comment to go check for sure) my new attitude is that I would never recommend home birth for anyone. Yet stories like #59's (or the milder Baby Story one I told) make it clear why women fear the loss of control that can come at the hospital and the callousness of incompetent or impatient doctors. I've heard WAY too many stories of a mom being ready to push and being told to wait until the doctor gets there, which I find appalling, even if it's a mild inconvenience compared to other horror stories here. Anyway, I've realized how very fortunate I've been to have what I consider to be the very best possible arrangement: a certified nurse midwife who delivers my baby at a hospital, and who teams with an ob/gyn who can take over in an emergency situation. The midwife typically stays with me for the whole labor (or at least most of it) and gives me as much autonomy as is safe, but everything's in place in case of complications (and I and my babies have had need of medical interventions, and I've been glad to be in the hospital for them.)
P.S. Comments like #59 make the cable shows seem mild -- I think Jon's going to have to ban you from reading the comments on your own blog.
364. Lana said:
Just makes me want to yell "Freebird!"
365. Amy said:
*Speechless*
366. Noelle said:
Wow, these comments are fairly amazing. I'm not even gonna go near any of it!
I keep checking to see if you have had le bebe, and then I get drawn in by the comments. Wow.
GO Familia Armstrong, especially the mama of NotMaria (although, I do agree with someone that Maria is growin' on me!).
Captcha: tartly Continued (HAHAHA)
367. Wen said:
AMEN!! That OB playing puppet with the newborn as it was being birthed was one of the most insulting, offensive things I've ever seen. They don't seem to realize they're making a mockery of the most sacred, holy event in a woman's life. Western obstetrics continues to degrade women and the birth experience.
368. Anonymous said:
Comment #302...I had two breech babies and no choice but to have planned sections. Didn't suffer any more post partum than the next person, didn't get any infections, my children are very intelligent, wonderful human beings that are both thriving in college. Had I not chosen to go to the medical facility to have them...they wouldn't be any of those things. They would more than likely be dead, along with their mother.
369. Amy Tuteur said:
Unassisted childbirth is the equivalent of putting your baby into a car without a carseat.
Is an unbuckled baby guaranteed to die on a trip to the grocery store? Of course not. Similarly, most babies will not die during an unassisted birth.
Is a carseat guaranteed to save the baby's life in the event of a crash? Of course not. In a truly horrific crash, no carseat, not matter how safe, will be able to save the baby.
So should you put your baby in a carseat when you drive to the grocery store? Of course you should. In the event of a crash, or even simply stopping short, the carseat will protect your baby from most injuries. And as we all know, no one can tell in advance when they are going to be in a crash.
The fact is that the risk of a baby dying in childbirth is far greater than the risk of a baby dying in a car crash. No one can tell in advance when a life threatening emergency will occur. If it does, and immediate expert assistance is unavailable, the baby will die. It's just that simple.
It's not a coincidence that the leading American and Australian exponents of "freebirth" have both lost babies during freebirth. Laura Shanley, the American, knowingly and deliberately gave birth to a premature baby at home and watched him die without ever calling for assistance.
Several months ago Janet Fraser boasted to an Australian paper that not only was she planning an unassisted birth, but she had not had any prenatal care either. A few days later her baby was born ... dead.
Women are free to make whatever choices they want to make, but they need to understand the risks. Unassisted childbirth kills babies, just like not buckling babies into carseats kills babies and for the exact same reason. When you fail to protect babies from danger, they die.
370. mirela said:
God, Heather! You make me choke while laughing so loud! You have the best and healthiest sense of humor! Love your posts.
P.S. I recently became addicted to TLC, my husband is so angry, you have no idea. The other day my son asked me: Mom, is this a channel specially designated for little people and parents with multiples?
371. Kristi said:
#355 Kami:
In response, stupid people really bug me. Normally I would ignore them, but when you have someone that biased spewing hypocritical garbage on a website that's not her own, and attacking the choices of the expectant dooce, for the safety of her child mind you, it just made me snap. So many things in life require personal choices and difficult decisions. It just bothers mr so much to see someone with no experience with depression give advice on the matter, especially when her own decisions regarding the birth of her children are far more risky. I don't lecture on medicines and birthing and all sorts of other things that I don't know about. I do, however, have common sense. And I've dealt with crippling depression. I'm not so much pissed at jenny hatch's personal birthing choice. If she wants to be stupid she has that right. I am irritated that she's giving her opinion on something she knows nothing about. I also highly disagree with all of her opinions. But whatever. Freedom of speech. Let us all run out virtual mouths! That's why comments are open on this, right?
P.S. Puppeteering a half-born baby is terrifying.
372. Ailis said:
So funny! I watched too much of those shows while pregnant (have a 3.5 month old) and my husband HATED them because so many focus on the things that go wrong. I thought he just thought it was gross and was worried about how he'd handle my delivery. This was our first, btw, which is probably an important thing to mention. After the baby was born, he told me he didn't mind them any more since we'd made it through the birth process and had a happy and healthy baby boy. And he ended up doing great through my labor and birth.
373. Robyn said:
"I just cannot believe the bedside manner of some of the doctors on that show, and I'm not even kidding, twice in the last week I have watched a doctor wave the arm of the newborn infant at its mother AS IT IS BEING PULLED FROM THE WOMB. No, wait. Let me finish. These doctors treated these seconds-old babies like puppets, waved their little arms wildly in the air, and said, "Hi, Mommy!" in a high-pitched voice as if that is exactly what they would sound like and say upon taking their first breaths. WHILE THE LOWER HALVES OF THEIR BODIES WERE STILL INSIDE THEIR MOTHERS.
You have got to be shitting me."
Still laughing--this 40-something mother of two grown kids completely concurs.
Oh, and freebirthing? Sorry, that's just irresponsible, to say nothing of insane.
374. Ailis said:
Also, the show I can't stop watching now that I've had the baby is "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant". Whaaa? How the heck can you not know? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.
375. Jennifer said:
OMG, this makes me feel so much better! I am 33 weeks and can't quit watching these shows, no matter how frustrated I get with the people on them,or how they are making me rethink the whole actual giving birth part of this process. Isn't there some other way to get this baby out of me??? Thank God I don't feel soooooo alone now.
I saw that show on free brithing and thought it was a joke until I realized these women were completely serious.
Thanks for the laughs, it was needed!
376. Chriss said:
Oh wow there are some crazy things written in response here. I think I am as addicted to reading the nutty comments as you are to the Discovery Channel, Dooce.
377. WackyMummy said:
I can't believe I just found you!!! Where have you been all my life!
378. manny said:
Manny stands for the two of us: Michele and Annie! We love your special humor Heather! Ann is pregnant and Michele has been there--addicted to birthing shows! We think your husband is smart!
379. Michelle said:
Wow..This topic is going to burn UP your comments section! Heather, I have to give it to you, you really stirred up the hornet's nest.
I saw that freebirthing episode and I felt the same way you did. Then I was so angry because I feel like there must be some motivation behind the show exposing these women and perhaps trying to give home birthing a bad name.
For my first birth, I was in the hospital attended by midwives and LD nurses (on pitocin, no pain meds). Survived, but not comfortably. Second birth, at home ASSISTED BY MIDWIVES. I got to stay in my kitchen, baking casseroles and cupcakes until I felt like I needed to lie down and then it was time to push. AWESOME. Home birthing is safe for mother and baby. The midwives are equipped and trained to handle emergencies and will only do home births for the healthiest of pregnancies.
No pregnant mother should watch those horrible shows. It is hard to tear yourself away for a reason. They appeal to all of your hormonal fears and vulnerabilities. They engrain in your psyche that something dangerous WILL happen to you and your baby. LISTEN TO JON.
I know that women somewhere in the world are freebirthing right now. They might have been working in the fields, squatted in the tall grass and pushed their baby out right on the spot. I however, like climate controlled rooms and clean sheets, and my midwife there watching and telling me everything is going to be ok. My midwife did hold up my placenta afterwards, exclaiming it to be very large, healthy, blah, blah, but she did it mostly to make sure it was all in one piece, which means there wasn't anything left in there to cause a life threatening infection. Gross? Yes. Necessary? Absolutely.
Free birthing to me seems like something women should only HAVE to do when not given ANY OTHER OPTION (the shift key is excited) and NOT something they'd choose for their baby or themselves for bringing a life into the world. From a liberal, pro-choice mother.
380. Anonymous said:
My Friend's 'Charming Doc'mor, who was flirting with her Mother the whole delivery, held up the placenta and asked if anyone wanted tacos. To this day, over ten years later, she talks about how she almost reached over the baby to punch him in the face.
381. Ronni said:
I think some folks get a little crazy with cameras on. I had two at home with midwives, and the third in a hospital. In all three cases, it was a quiet, low key experience, more-or-less scream-free, and not a ventriloquist in sight. I find those shows very disturbing, also.
382. The Football Wife said:
I hate "A Baby Story"!! Everyone gets an epidural and then SURPRISE, SURPRISE it's getting close to dinner time for Dr. OBGYN and he decides that the baby's not coming on it's own... C-Section Time & he's home in time for Wheel of Fortune.
383. Meranath said:
Heather, I was tripping balls so hard on pain medication during labor that if the doctor did that, I'd either have laughed uncontrollably or really thought the baby was talking.
384. Zandra Anderson said:
Whew, Dooce, you are a brave soul. Actually, you're also a genius because if the shock and awe factor of those crazy birthing shows can't induce labor for you then some of these comments certainly will! ;-)
I must admit I got sucked into those shows too at one time. I'd be dead ... and so would my first baby ... if we hadn't been in a hospital for his birth and I had a completely NORMAL pregnancy. So I shudder a bit at the freebirthing concept. Sure, women have been birthing unassisted in the wilderness for centuries ... and they've been dying during unassisted childbirth in the wilderness for centuries too.
Hope you have that baby girl soon but I'll miss your posts as you recover. You are hilarious. Good Luck!
385. dharmamama said:
A friend of mine is about to birth her 4th child anyday now unassisted. I have mixed feeling about this as I am an advocate of natural birthing. Or should I say an advocate of safe,natural birthing.
I'll have to post the results. She is going to drink castor oil tomorrow...so say tuned!
386. Elaine said:
dharmamama: You realize how incredibly unwise and potentially harmful drinking castor oil is to the baby, right? Your friend is going to do that and then have an unassisted birth?
If the unassisted birth people are all about a natural birth, why not LET THE BABY COME IN ITS OWN TIME? Drinking castor oil to induce labor is in complete opposition to having a natural birth. Pure stupidity.
387. Sprite's Keeper said:
Such passion on both sides and I still refuse to watch any more Baby Story. Although I mimic Bossy when I say Bringing Home Baby makes me SO happy about my own reality.
388. Anonymous said:
Dooce. This is the funniest thing you've EVER written!!!!
389. Zina said:
And now I've read *all* the comments, and lived to tell the tale (if not accomplished anything useful today.) This was way more engrossing than the fantasy novel I've also been reading, which includes a part where someone's fingers get bitten off and all their blood sucked out by a boggart.
In between reading here, I've been gazing at my gorgeous, healthy 3.5-month-old and feeling awe and gratitude that she made it here and is thriving.
390. Suzie said:
Whew! Nothing like bringing out the crazies, Dooce! Thanks for an entertaining read today. And although I support women who want to have unmedicated births, my FIRST question to my OB was "at what point can I get an epidural?" Because although I KNOW women have been giving birth for thousands of years unmedicated, why the eff would I want to?? It's call PROGRESS, people. I picked a highly educated well regarded OB/GYN to deliver my child and I can honestly say I think people are NUTS for doing it at home, without any assistance! And Jenny, it's laughable that you think you are as educated as an MD, because no matter how many books you read, or whatever blog you may have created, I don't want to hear your "experience" in delivering babies unless you have MD after your name.
391. Rich Morey said:
I really enjoy reading your site but I'm curious why we can never comment on the Daily Chuck photos? Any thoughts or plans to open up commenting there?
392. SAHM: Surviving Assorted Home Mayhem said:
I can only imagine that this line:
"you've got to have a special combination of bravery and stupidity going on to attempt such a thing"
will bring out some hate comments for ya from all the uber natural types who like to live on the edge, so to speak. I completely agree with you...as much as childbirth is suppose to be natural and not medical, you have to appreciate being in a setting where you can get the help you or your baby just might desperately need...and I was in that very situation with the little guy when he was born a couple years ago. As much as it might be special to give birth at home in a "natural" setting, there's much to be said for pulling through the whole childbirth thing alive and well.
393. laura Lu said:
I just cannot believe that some women and men on here have the nerve to basically call women who homebirth, uneducated, archaic, and monsters for endangering thier children (and for the person who cites Wikipedia, that has never been a credible source for facts, I can go on there right now and edit every post you just sourced)
unassited or assisted. Its a choice, a safe, viable, realistic choice that no one can prove is more dangerous than a hospital birth. No one.
Is it for everyone HECK NO, but for the millions of women that choose it? its not a matter of being some hippie, uneducated, poor person who doesnt like doctors.
lets be more tolerant shall we? this isnt a witch hunt on homebirthing.
394. laura lu said:
wikipedia....cord prolapse....just added a "hi there"
not credible.
395. ally said:
You're a bit too mainstream and status quo to be cool anymore.
Keep in mind that women have been birthing by themselves or in the presence of other women since the dawn of time. If it was so stupid, certainly the human race would not have survived this long.
396. Anonymous said:
Laura Lu: You have proven yourself not credible, certainly. You've also violated Wikipedia's terms of use.
I am astounded that you can say with a straight face that "no one can prove [unassisted births are] more dangerous than a hospital birth. No one."
You are hopeless, my dear.
397. Shawna said:
Hilarious. I think Jon may be onto something with forbidding you from watching those shows. It sounds pretty sick (in the bad way).
398. Miranda said:
The TLC show I like is the one where models are mom's pregnant models and they all say "ohh I'm having a natural birth" and then they don't take Lamaze classes or have a dula or a mom who knows what she's doing there for her to tell her to BREATH YOU IDIOT!! then a quarter way through they say "GIVE ME THE DRUGS!!" Hey I'm for birth anyway you want it but if you're gunho about a certain way and talk about how tough you are, you go the way you want to. Don't act tough, be tough. I think its tough to get a needle in your back, I respect women who do that...I apparently had an easy delivery because I couldn't bring myself to take the pain of a needle but the pain of contractions...well I had my mom/dula there to make me breath...
But I would NEVER EVER not have anyone there, that's re-god-damn-diculous.
I watched every TLC baby show before giving birth, and now I don't watch any of them. I wonder if when I get pregnant again I'll watch them again...
Oh and I've learned from my first that, next time I'll get a doctor and not just a resident for my doctor, that way she doesn't have to do what another jerk tells her what to do.
399. Anonymous said:
For those going on and on about Laura's death there was an autopsy done and regardless of where the baby had been born his heart issues were severe enough that it wouldn't have mattered where he was born. If you are going to judge/comment on someone at least take the time to get all the details.
400. Alexis said:
"Keep in mind that women have been birthing by themselves or in the presence of other women since the dawn of time. If it was so stupid, certainly the human race would not have survived this long."
Yes, but are you willing to take the risks that these women faced? This is an oversimplified argument that doesn't take into consideration the tremendous advances in public health and medicine.
Check out these statistics for the U.S.:
In 1915, the infant mortality rate was 100 for every 1,000 live births. The maternal mortality rate was 800 for every 1,000 live births.
Compare to 2007:
6.37 infant deaths for every 1,000 live births
13 maternal deaths for every 1,000 live births
401. Anonymous said:
Yes, the human race survived this long with "freebirthing" but with a heck of a lot more natural selection than most of us find acceptable.
I would not like the thinning of the herd to come from my own death, leaving my children motherless, nor would I like to contribute a dead baby to the cause.
If freebirthers are comfortable subtracting themselves from the population, I guess that's OK. But those babies? I'm not sure every 21 week preemie should be treated with extraordinary medical care, but a 40 week baby? I think the state has a legitimate interest in the baby's life. We pro-choicers all have a line somewhere, and that is apparently mine.
402. Debbie said:
Wow - surprised the comments aren't closed yet - you guys must be at the hospital :)
As a card carrying granola mom - I recall how shocked many of my friends were that I was delivering my baby at not only a hospital, but the area hospital specializing in high risk births - all I heard about was the c-section rates and high epidural rates and how I couldn't possible deliver there unassisted.
Well I have to say thank you to my fantastic OB - who watched while I delivered my almost 9 pound son with an unusually large head - with no drugs, no incisions and no other "medical intervention" - well she did unwrap the cord around his neck, but I don't really fault her that.
Find an MD, midwife, doula or someone else that you're comfortable with and know is supportive of your plan ( and make sure that whoever else can be "on call" is just as supportive) than it doesn't really matter where you give birth, home or hospital - you'll be comfortable.
403. Sarah said:
The doctors I hate the most on TLC are the ones who tell the moms that c-sections are their only option. There was one woman who came in for an induction (she wasn't overdue or anything, just wanted to induce for convenience) and the baby wasn't in a good position for labor so the doctor told her she needed to have a c-section. Not, your baby isn't in the optimal position yet, let's wait a couple more days and see if you efface and dilate a bit, or, I don't know, go into atcual labor, just "you need a c-section, today". To make it worse the woman kept saying how she didn't want this and was scared of the surgery, but she agreed because the doctor told her to do it. I was fit to throw the TV out the window.
404. Noelle said:
Bravery and stupidity - not a good combination.
405. Kandi said:
To me, nothing beats what happened after my niece was born. I had just got back from midwifing a litter of pups, skidding in sideways almost literally so I wouldn't miss coaching my friend while she birthed and the Dr knew my friend also midwifed with me and asked her "You wouldn't by chance want to consume this would you?" While holding the placenta up to her face. She wasn't impressed.
406. K. said:
Gosh, that is awful about the baby puppeteering (I don't know if that's a real word, but it should be), but I just want you to know that I deliver babies and NEVER HAVE I EVER (NOT EVEN ONCE!) puppeteered a newborn. How shameful. I do like to lay them on mum's tummy though. =)
407. Work from home jobs said:
That is crazy and scary all mixed together in one.
408. Lori said:
My husband also attempted to limit my consumption of baby-related TV. It didn't work, but it did help to show what labor looked like more so than whatever my birthing class instructor could describe. And I chose to have my baby in a hospital--which was a great choice considering my son wound up being born 5 weeks early.
409. Tania Julian said:
Ok, you finally got me to comment. This is the funniest post to date!!! F****** hilarious. I was addicted to watching this crap myself. Phew, I'm glad this phase is over, but it sounds like I must check out this freebirthing show. Too good to pass up. I am all into natural childbirth... or was, since I won't need to be any longer. I wish you all the best for your delivery. You've got the power to do it. Just believe in yourself and know you have the strength to do it. And I pray nobody will play ventriloquist with your half-born baby!
410. heyjoe said:
That masthead. Good LORD. Did that broad come with a diner and a palooka named Mel?
411. Lisa Beth said:
The comments to this post actually have me continuously checking back to see the rath of Jenny Hatch. As a mother of two who would have died with the birth of both my children had I not been in the presence of medical professionals, I must say I feel that giving birth is best when supervised... to say the least. I would never attempt a "freebirth" - kuddos to those that do, but yikes! With everything we know today and what we can prevent with modern medicine, why risk it? Wouldn't it just be smart to have SOMEONE there with some kind of medical background??
And as far as the whole Prozac controversy that "Jenny" stirred up, I am a pharmacist and honestly can say that when the benefits outweigh the risks - SO BE IT. If you have a clinical need for antidepressants while pregnant - take them! And there are much worse drugs you could be taking. So back off Jenny Hatch!!
Good luck Dooce!
412. Kami said:
360. Elaine said:
Kami:
Do you believe your comments are raising the bar in some way? They are not.
I was just laughing about all of the "pure stupidity", as you call it. Is that raising the bar, either? No. Lighten up. Or commence attacking the freebirthers- whichever makes you feel better!
413. Jenny Hatch said:
I also want to wish you well Dooce, I pray you have a great birth, a wonderful healthy baby, and I hope you never have to suffer with post partum illness again.
As someone who has struggled with emotional illness my whole life, I only wish you and all mothers complete and total joy as you give birth to your child.
Jenny
414. Kami said:
I just think all the lashing out is silly- it doesn't accomplish anything. I think people who resort to that often look as ridiculous and they think their targets look, and I don't see the point, but that's me. I think it's better to have a level of respect for other people and their choices, even if I think they're poor and scary. Because, honestly, they don't even CARE if you think they're crazy. People get all angry or passive aggressive for no good reason, and it's not even a debate at that point. I don't care about raising the bar- I'm just stating my opinion, like everyone else. I wish there was more dialogue and less snottiness sometimes.
415. Jenny Hatch said:
Just a quick reminder about who picked a fight with who. It was Heather who linked the word stupidity with freebirth in her blog post. In the many comments that followed various slurs were thrust in my general direction and blasted out against my friends in the Freebirth community. Heather is a big girl and as a tough blogging babe, I figured she could handle a couple of digs at her lifestyle and mothering choices around antidepressants, just as I have been able to handle the flat out rejection from just about all of my family, lifelong friends, and most especially the medical professionals in my life.
As I said, we all make choices every day that impact our kids.
I can live with my life choices.
Can you?
Jenny
416. Coelecanth said:
Alexis #400 said:
"In 1915, the infant mortality rate was 100 for every 1,000 live births. The --maternal mortality rate was 800 for every 1,000 live births.
Compare to 2007:
6.37 infant deaths for every 1,000 live births
13 maternal deaths for every 1,000 live births"
Really? Where you getting those numbers from? You're putting the maternal mortality rate in the US in 1915 at 80%?
According to the CDC paper "Maternal Mortality and Related Concepts" the rate in 1915 was 607.9 in 100,000 and the rate in 2003 had dropped to 12.1 in 100,000. Or to use your format 6.079 per 1000 dropping to 0.121 per 1000 in 2003.
The real numbers support your claim of a dramatically reduced mortality rate. In your example the rate dropped by around 62 times, in the real data it dropped by 50 times.
This paper can be found here:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03_033.pdf
Look, I'm all in favour of using statistics to further discussion but please cite your sources so we can check them for ourselves. One of the reasons I didn't get all personal (Ok I was a little snarky, sorry, it was late.) with Jenny is because she was at least willing to say where she was getting her information from. Never mind that her conclusions from that info are puzzling to me to say the least, that's her business.
417. Coelecanth said:
Ah Jenny, there you are. Good. Look, I apologize for the tone of my post above (#347), it was mean spirited and I regret it. It was late and I was tired but that's no excuse. I'm sorry.
But my question stands and I would honestly love an answer to it, not to mock or degrade but to understand. Or if I disagree with your answer to discuss it as civilized folk.
Why is it acceptable to you to take the risk of cord prolapse during freebirthing and not acceptable to take a 4 times lesser risk of craniosynostosis due to anti-depressant use?
Do disagree with my numbers? If so please cite yours and where you got them. Or is it something else? Please educate me, I am not afraid to be wrong. Although I require some kind of proof to change my opinion, change it I do, and happily, when that standard of proof is met.
418. Helen said:
Seriously, I have spent the last few hours reading every single post. At some point, I was directed to a YouTube video of someone posting almost their entire labor for all the world to view. It was an unassisted water birth at home in 9 separate videos. I watched every single one, I kid you not. I sat here with my mouth hanging open as I saw a room full of friends with her, small children, her husband totally naked in the blow up pool with her and then viewed one of the onlookers enter the pool and SHE had no clothes on! The camera is focused very close as her baby is born and you miss nothing. I am not faulting or judging in any form or fashion. My thoughts are "OMG". Guess I am still in shock as the last thing we see on episode #9 is where they have taken the placenta to the kitchen and laid it out on the cutting board. A piece is chopped off and taken to the mother and she EATS IT ! I have decided that what I viewed has really been an excellent appetite suppressant for me and could also be considered birth control for some teenagers I know! Not to mention a good view of a baby being born.
No need to go hunt down TLC birthing shows. Just go on YouTube and you will see numerous birthing videos posted. And the "orgasmic births" were most amazing.
Dooce and Jon, hang in there! Maybe it wont be long until your little miracle arrives. Best of luck!
419. d3 voiceworks said:
Did you have your baby yesterday? Because while I was out walking my 3 month old, I saw a Mama & Papa and baby quail and thought it was a sign.
Good luck!
420. Jenny Hatch said:
Your question reminds me of a blog post I wrote a while back, and so in the spirit of sharing, and because I have a busy day planned and don't have time to retype....here is my response to your inquiry (#417) that I prove how UC birth is better/safer than anti-depressant risks, at least I think that is how you framed your question.
http://www.naturalfamilyblog.com/archives/000967.html
These past few weeks I have been forced to consider once again the difficulty that comes into my life with the Promotion of Unassisted Childbirth. As I have participated in a variety of news, magazine, and online conversations about childbirth, it has been a rude awakening to realize how truly controversial this lifestyle is.
I am so in the habit of socializing with people who have reconciled our life choices, and don't feel the need to give us any grief about it, that when I am thrust into a situation where that old hostility rears its ugly head, it is always a shock to my sensibilities to listen to and read the pure venom that is reserved for those of us who have pulled away from the Birth Machine.
I have spent some quality time these past few weeks participating in online forums, blogs, and talking to reporters about Freebirth. I am so in the habit of thinking of this as a valid and realistic alternative to hospital birth, that it is easy to forget my own long journey to home birth and give others the same grace and space to reconcile it in their own minds.
I realized during a recent chat that those I was talking to wanted me to erase all of their fears and phobias around birth with a wave of a magic wand. They wanted me to reassure and give them the words and evidence that would allow them to let go of all of their own programming around birth fears and give the evidence that would enable them to quickly shift to a new way of thinking. Wether they knew it or not, this is an impossible task to request of any one person, and the reason why is because those who give birth at home unassisted are working in the faith realm. And for those steeped in medical childbirth, they are so far removed from faith, working in the fleshy realm of the tests, drugs, procedures, and practices of birth that to ask a person of faith to "hand over" a testimony of birth is an unrealistic request.
It is as if an atheist asked a person who believed in God to simplistically and without any effort on the atheists part, impart a faithful testimony of God into their heart.
Life does not work that way. In the faith realm, even after years of difficult reprogramming of mental attitudes towards birth, filling the mind with new beliefs, thrusting out of ones life the people, attitudes, and philosophies that are frustrating the freebirth process (and this is in fact the main reason I took on the task of doing my own prenatal care), and doing every proactive thing possible in terms of nutrition and exercise....even then....
GIVING BIRTH ALONE IS A LEAP OF FAITH!!!
Paul and I were talking about this topic during the days leading up to Bens Birth. We had been in email contact with another LDS couple who were planning an unassisted birth, and the mother had written, "If I could only be assured that nothing bad would happen, then I think I could give birth alone." She shared with us how she had begged the Lord to assure her that everything would be fine.... and the heavens were silent.
The question is, Would it have been a leap of faith on her part if the Lord had told her before the baby came, that everything would in fact be fine; no worries, no problems?
Nope. The law that governs the universe is the Law of Opposites. If couples want to work in the medical realm where every step of the way they can be assured by technology that "everything is fine", I believe they are cutting themselves off from the potential JOY and fulfillment that comes with the leap. Wether they are aware of it or not, they also welcome into their lives the various pitfalls and iantrogenic problems that accompany technological birth.
With unassisted birth, it often feels like a couple is standing on the edge of a cliff, with rocks and briars in the valley below. When that husband and wife make the decision to stand away from the edge, grasp hands, and then take a flying leap into the unknown, it can indeed look to outsiders as irresponsible as any intentional jump off a cliff would appear. Yet if that same couple claims the scriptural promises that Faith will indeed proceed the miracle, and assume that God will be waiting with outstretched hands to catch them before they hit bottom, the pure joy and happiness that can be a part of that union of Father, Mother, and Heavenly Father working in harmony together is difficult to put into words.
This is birth. It is a life and death moment. A mother walks into the valley of the shadow of death to grasp her childs hand and walk with him or her into mortality. The veil is very thin and during this moment, just about anything can happen.
Modern Medicine would never have been able to make the obscene amounts of money from the pelvic goldmine if this were not the case. Fathers and Mothers would have never submitted to the level of intervention and costs associated with allopathy, if this were not the case. Heck, Anakin Skywalker would have never become Darth Vadar if this were not the case.
So the question must be asked, How is it possible for me to convince you in a matter of days, weeks, or just a few months that the way I give birth is "safe, best for the baby, best for the family, and best for a husband and wifes married life together", if it took me years of difficult work to get to the place where I myself felt comfortable with it?
How could I find the words to convince you, if after all these years, I have barely been able to convince my own husband? And I can promise you we have spent more hours talking and discussing birth than just about any other subject in our life together.
That request, that I convince you with just a few written words that unassisted childbirth is safe and desirable, is simply impossible to do.
The challenge I have for those of you reading is to do your own research, to logically and systematically reason it out in your own mind, to learn for yourself the facts of making a healthy baby, and then when the time comes, TAKE THE LEAP OF FAITH THAT WILL LAND YOU SAFELY IN THE WORLD OF PROACTIVE PARENTING. Asking that I prove this with a study or a statistic is simply impossible.
Yet, being personally responsible for this life choice will change everything in your life. Few things have affected me so profoundly as taking personal responsibility for my own life, my own health, and my childrens heath. The satisfaction and thrill that I have felt these past ten years since making the determination that this was what I was going to do, has brought amazing amounts of joy, pure spirit, pure love into my life. Conversely, and this is the law of opposites kicking in again, making this decision has also brought incredible amounts of pain and trauma into my heart.
I have reconciled my life choices. But many around me have NOT reconciled my life choices, especially as it relates to their own life experiences. Non conformity has a price. And it is up to each individual couple how much of a price they are willing to pay for that non conforming to societies expectations and rules of conduct.
Like it or not, we live in a world where technology is God. All of the civic laws, rules of conduct, expectations, and assumptions revolve around that reality. And when you step out of that reality into something completely different, it can make those around you assume that you have lost your marbles. Some individuals are better able to reconcile that rejection and reality. Some are not able, and often divorce or even death results. I have known several unassisted birthing mothers who simply died. No, not during the birth, but in the months after the birth, once the rejection from peers reached fever pitch, a couple of them have simply died. Mostly of heart attack, heart ache. I believe they could not reconcile the reality of the amazing joy and sacredness of the birth experience with all of the layers of dung being thrown at them afterwards by family, friends, social workers, doctors, and society in general.
So, how to do we go from a society that is running at a dead heat towards technological interventions as God, to a society where God is God and we have the faith and trust to believe in him and claim his promises as our own?
I have a few ideas for how this is going to happen. But I am not going to share them in this post. I will share a scripture however, and leave it up to you the reader to ponder it in your own mind.
"When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning."
The Lord will wash away the filth.
Preparing a people for the Millennium.
End of the World.
If anyone believes that Zion living and Zion families are going to be the fruit of Babylonian Birthing and Babylonian living, well, I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.
But I will end this post by sharing my testimony.
I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that a powerful, real, unbreakable bond is created between a father and his children when he is the first to touch that child after birth. This first touching is the key to hearts being melded together in eternal love. If we don't move towards this type of birth, this type of living, we move step by step away from the spirit of Elijah, towards that wasting place of the whole purpose of the earth being frustrated.
Please consider these realities when making these most important health decisions for yourself and your child. And go find out for yourself if a faith leap around birth makes sense for you and your family.
Jenny Hatch
PS, if you want to read the post with links - click above
421. neg said:
Heather,
What medication are you on and how much?
Thinking about getting back on Lexapro.
Thanks
422. kristin c. said:
I am not exaggerating when I say that I have not laughed so hard as I just did while reading this post in a LONG fucking time. Holy crap. Tears are streaming.
423. Anonymous said:
#421-neg------A question for you if you don't mind---when you were on your Lexapro, did it make you have some weight gain? I did. Got off of it and am now on Luvox. Same thing. Really need to talk to some "real people" out there about this as don't think I need any of those drugs. Want to get off completely.
And Dooce----Prozac literally saved my life years back when I hit that black dog of depression after my Mom's death! That stuff was awesome for me.
Sorry this is all off topic!